Defining Equity in Leadership | Beyond DEI Performativity with Celeste Warren

Diversity, equity, and inclusion has become one of the most politically charged phrases in the country, and most people arguing about it can't actually define equity if you asked them to.

Celeste Warren spent decades leading equity and inclusion work inside major corporations and just wrote The Truth About Equity to clear that up. We get into the rocks-and-fence analogy that reframes the whole conversation, what separates real inclusion from performative inclusion, and a story from my own corporate past I have never told publicly before.

This isn't a policy debate, it's about trust, and whether the people you lead actually believe you see them. Listen, then come tell me what your fence is.

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Transcript

DEI Without Politics

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hi, friend. I am gonna say something that might ruffle a few feathers. And frankly, I'm okay with that. Diversity, equity, and inclusion. I think it has become one of the most politically charged phrases in the United States right now. And I'm excited to dive into it today because at the end of this conversation, I think it's just about good management. So today I'm sitting down with Celeste Warren. She has spent decades leading equity and inclusion work inside some major corporations. And she wrote The Truth About Equity to clear up exactly what that phrase does and doesn't mean. We're going to talk about the difference between a workplace that performs inclusion and one that actually practices it. We're going to talk about this rocks and fence analogy. And it was honestly really good for me. So I hope it's good for you. And I'm going to tell you a story about my very last corporate job that I have genuinely never told on this podcast before. I want you to know this is not going to be a policy debate. I'm not here to tell you what to think about any of it. But if you manage people, you lead a team, you sit on a board, or you run a household. And let's be honest, that is probably everybody on here who is listening. Then this conversation is about trust and it's about whether the people around you actually believe you see them. So let's dive in.

Meet Celeste Warren

SPEAKER_01 1:14

Welcome back to the Well of Society. I'm your host, Lemon Price. And today I am so excited to have Celeste Warren on with me. Celeste, thank you for being here. I'm so excited to have you. Thank you for the invitation, Lemon. I appreciate it. I am so excited. So everybody's heard your very impressive bio, but I always ask people what is something that was interesting about you that I wouldn't get from your bio.

SPEAKER_00 1:38

I track mom and a soccer mom. My kids, they're grown now, but they were my daughter wasn't a track athlete all through college, and my son was a soccer athlete all through college and high school as well. And I love sports. I love watching them now. And I'm a Pittsburgh Steelers fan living in Eagle territory.

SPEAKER_01 2:02

I cannot imagine how well that goes over for you. Not too good. Yeah. Listen, I see stuff about Saquon Barkley everywhere, even down here in Savannah. And I'm like, I don't, oh my gosh, I'm wearing Eagles green today, too. I didn't even realize I did that. That's so funny. For those of you who don't know, I am from that neck of the woods. So I am very familiar with Eagles territory. And if you're not familiar, it is a completely different culture than anything I've ever experienced in my entire life. I thought the SEC was bad, but Philly is pretty bad. So anyway, that is not why you're here. I'm

Defining Diversity Inclusion Equity

SPEAKER_01 2:42

really excited to just dive into this conversation around equity, inclusion, diversity, because it is such a hot topic right now, unfortunately. And I am confused by that. But I would love to just know like, how would you define equity before we even go into the conversation?

SPEAKER_00 3:04

Sure. So I let me define it in the essence of diversity, equity, and inclusion. So diversity is simply differences in people, differences that you can see and some that you can't see. That could be different skills, capabilities, identities, cultures, life experiences, strengths, weaknesses, et cetera. And then inclusion, you have all of these different people with all these different perspectives, different backgrounds, et cetera. And you're trying to get them to a collective purpose in an organization, in a university. You're trying to get them to that admission vision of that organization. And so you have to surround all of those people with all those differences with a culture of inclusion, because that will help to make them feel belonging, a sense of belonging valued for who and what they bring to the table. Now, equity comes in where you have to meet people where they are because they're very different. They didn't come from the same places, the same backgrounds, same life experiences. They don't have the same skills, capabilities, perspectives, et cetera. So you need to meet them where they are, find out what those skills are, what those capabilities are, what those cultural differences are, what those backgrounds are. And then what are the obstacles and the barriers that are getting in the way from them being able to be successful and reach whatever aspirations they have? And then you put those acts of equity in place to get them to that collective purpose. So equity is where you try to get understand the person, understand they didn't start in the same place. And so you're putting acts of equity in place to get them to a collective purpose within the organization.

SPEAKER_01 4:53

I love that you said that. Can you

Acts of Equity at Work

SPEAKER_01 4:55

talk about what you would what an example of an act of equity would be, in case somebody doesn't know?

SPEAKER_00 5:00

Yeah. Let's take a manager who has a team of about 10 people. And that manager is their job is to make sure that they are optimizing the level performance of that team. Now, how they do that, they have to meet not just periodically with the whole team. That's not going to do it. They need, believe you, Mitty, there are managers that don't do this, unfortunately. But you need to be meeting one-on-one with your individual team members, understanding their strengths, their areas for development, their skills, their capabilities. What are some of those obstacles that are getting in the way? What are some of those life experiences that you may be experiencing that you may need support from in order to be more productive? So for example, a manager has 10 people. One of those individuals is a mom who has a special needs child at home. She has to be home by a certain time because she has to make sure that her child is settled, taken care of. And then she she then after her child goes to bed, she gets online at in the evening and continues working. And so with that manager understanding that need, then the manager says, okay, absolutely, you can leave at 3:34. And I'm not going to be judging you by the time clock of you being in the office. I'm judging you or not judging you. I'm assessing your performance by what are the outcomes and priorities that we agreed to at the beginning of the year that you would complete by the end of the year. I don't need to tell you how to go from A to B to C to D. I just need to say at the end of the day, did you accomplish and get to Z? And so though that manager saying that she can go home at a certain time, she can have that flexible work arrangement to be able to complete and be productive and complete her work. That's an example of an act of equity. And there's nothing illegal about it. There's nothing, it's actually good management. And I don't have to say management or leadership 101. So it's an example. Everyone doesn't need that accommodation, but one person on his team, the manager's team, does. And so that's what I mean, where you have to meet the individual where they are and give them what they need to succeed. So in this case, it was a flexible work arrangement.

SPEAKER_01 7:30

Okay. I love that you said that because I when I think about times where I have had, okay, prime example. I work at the university. I had surgery in April. And yeah, I literally do research. I read on the computer and I'm writing. I'm not doing anything strenuous at all. And yet the university was so good they were like, please stay at home. If you feel like working, cool. If you don't, cool, recover. And I stayed home for two weeks. But I got so much because I was like, wow, there's no, I want to get it done because of the way that you've supported me. I want to go above and beyond for you because I'm the only one who needed that accommodation. And it was small, right? I only need they gave me two weeks. They told me I could take more time if I needed it. I didn't. Everything was fine. But they were so nice and good to me that I wanted to go above and beyond for them just because they met me where I was at.

SPEAKER_00 8:28

And that is the perfect example. That is one of the advantages of good management, good, fair, equitable practices in management. And you just gave the exact example. Because

Trust and Discretionary Effort

SPEAKER_00 8:41

at the same time that you're meeting one-on-one with the individual, getting to know them, getting to understand them, and you're building trust. And when a in when an employee trusts their manager, they will give that discretionary effort. They will have a sense of belonging. They'll have a sense of feeling valued for what they bring to the organization because their manager invests the time in them. And you ever see, I always laugh when I tell the story. And come on, team, let's go and take this hill. And he gets about halfway up, he looks back behind them, and they're still standing at the bottom of the hill saying, Yeah, you go ahead and do that. Because there's not the trust. There's not the, I'm not doing that. That's not part of my job. I'm not taking that hill with you. That wasn't part of my job description. Because that lack of trust that that's there between the manager and their employees. And I've seen that cartoon a couple of times, and I always laugh because the look on the people that are looking at them, one woman is filing her nails. Yeah, you go ahead. We're not with you on this one. But it's it. That's the you get the discretionary effort, and the team wants to go and take that heel with you because that's the type of a leader that you are.

SPEAKER_01 10:06

I love this so much that you

A Hostile Workplace Story

SPEAKER_01 10:09

have to have buy-in. And I always say people don't leave jobs, they leave bad managers who are not. I have left, I've definitely left jobs before because management was bad. Or my last corporate job, and I think this will tie into kind of this equity conversation, the inclusion and things like that. My last corporate job, I was actually in the Philly area before I moved to Georgia. I was the only female employee at the office. I was also the only one who didn't work full-time because there was no need for me to work full-time as the CMO. I was like, I can handle it all faster in less hours and get the same or better results that you had before. There was pushback one time on an initiative because I wanted to feature more female-run businesses. I was in the financial space. And I came back to work the next day, and there were phallic symbols drawn all over my walls, my files. Everything in my office was literally covered in penises. I'll just sit, we'll just be that's what drawn everywhere on every surface of my office. And I, we, it was small enough that we didn't have HR, but I told the owner I thought we had a good relationship. And he was, I was like, I don't feel good coming into the office right now, knowing this is what happened. And it was a boys will be boys, don't be so sensitive type of a thing. And I was like, I'm out then. I'm like, I got you phenomenal results, and this is how I was treated. So I was like, I'm I am out and left, but because there was no support from the owner, and I'm like, this was not okay, but because I was the only girl, it was you're sensitive.

SPEAKER_00 11:55

That is absolutely crazy, and uh, you're a better person than a lot of people would be because the next thing they would do is get a lawyer, because that is absolutely harassment and starting a hostile work environment. That's a shame that you had to go through that. But many women and other people who are marginalized, unfortunately, still go through things like that in the workplace. And it's just a shame that it's still going on.

SPEAKER_01 12:22

Yeah. So that was, I'll say eight-ish years ago, nine-ish years ago, maybe that happened. And so maybe the conversation has gotten better, but I don't know that it that it has in some ways. And

Beyond Performative DEI

SPEAKER_01 12:34

so that's really what I wanted to talk about too is performative diversity, performative equity. We're organizations are really good about putting out this statement of support, but then we're not actually measuring what's going on. And I would love to know why you think that is, how do we fix it? What do we do as leaders to have real results? Because I know everybody listening is not interested in fluffy surface level type stuff. They're here because they want to make change. And so I would love to hear your perspective on that.

SPEAKER_00 13:07

On

Equity in Action Framework

SPEAKER_00 13:08

an individual level, you can, if you're a manager and you're a leader and you manage people, you can do exactly the example that I talked about, the one-on-one meetings with your team to understand them. That's one thing that you can do. Another thing is be uh aware of the system around you. And so I talk on my website, there's a link to equity and action model for man modules for man managers. And it's just really each module, it's a mini-module, about 15 minutes each, that you can talk hear about how you need to go through the this aspect. But it first is awareness. You need to be aware of what's going on around you. Take a look. And what I like to say is if your organization says its values and its standards are around dignity and respect of fellow employees and people, then that those values should permeate through policies, practices, not just on the people side, but also on the business side as well, and how you treat your customers, et cetera. So be aware, look and see where you see things that that you're asking a question, that doesn't seem to really be inclusive, or what's going on here, what's going on there? So be aware, look at the system. The second thing is access, remove barriers. And so when I talk in the example that I gave earlier with the manager and the employee, where she had the challenge and it was in her flex, she needed a flexible work arrangement. So remove those barriers, allow her to have that flexible work arrangement. The third is advocacy, use your voice, speak up. And you don't have to be a manager or a leader to do that. Anybody, when you see something, say something, right? We see that in the in different things, but elevate your voice, speak up, because what I like to say is it even if it's not happening to you, but you see it happening, you may, you may feel empowered to be able to elevate your voice. You would need to elevate it for people who don't feel empowered to elevate their voice. And so elevate your own voice and speak on behalf of them as well. The fourth thing is action. An idea in your head, it's simply an idea in your head. You have to action. You have to embed practices, embed inclusive practices in everything that you do, in your interactions, in your meetings, in your one-on-one, into policies, into practices. The fifth is accountability. You need to make sure that you're measuring and you're seeing, okay, is this having an impact? And one way that you can measure is a lot of companies, they take what they call culture surveys or engagement surveys. And usually, if you're a manager and you have a certain number of direct reports, you can get your results back. Look at your results. And if your results say, you know what, people aren't as engaged and your scores aren't as high as they should be, then you need to be talking with your employees to say, what can I be doing better? What can we be doing better? That's one way of driving accountability and letting them know that you feel responsible for those results. But there are lots of ways that you can measure whether you're doing a good job or not. And then the last thing is empowering. Empower yourself because you have the power to be able to make change. And most importantly, if you're a manager or leader, empower your team. Empower them because they know what's going on the ground. They know what's happening. They have more information than you do. And that's they should because they're actually in there doing the work. And so what you need to be doing is really empowering them to speak up, to elevate their voice, to talk about what's going well, what's not going well. And so they don't feel a fear of retaliation either. Create that environment of psychological safety. So those are like what I like to say, or my equity and action model that all managers need to do. And it's not something that's pie in the sky or nebulous. It's everyday actions, pragmatic actions that you can take to create a more inclusive environment, to create more equitable practices.

SPEAKER_01 17:22

I love this so much. I hope everybody wrote that down. Maybe I'll like I'll put them in the show notes for you guys. Just these, what is it, six steps for equity in action? I'm gonna put them in the show notes so you guys can look at them. And obviously, you guys will have Celeste's website, so you can go and see what she's doing.

Psychological Safety and Speaking Up

SPEAKER_01 17:38

But we were talking before we hit record just about I feel like culture right now in the United States is very open about not being inclusive. I'm gonna try to be as diplomatic about it as possible. But I feel like people as all like they're very comfortable being racist or homophobic or ableist or any of those things, super sexist. Like I see it a lot where people are very comfortable, which is interesting because I feel like we have more representation than we've ever had before. But then I people are also very emboldened in that. And so I like that you talked about not creating like this retaliation, right? Creating something that's psychologically safe. And so I would love to talk about that a little bit more if we can, just like what it looks like when people are afraid of backlash or when there are voices that are extremely loud and opinionated in a workspace. Like, how do you navigate that?

SPEAKER_00 18:42

Yeah, it's unfortunate that we're still in 2026 living in an environment where people don't feel safe to speak up and they don't feel that they are included and there's marginalization, it's happening still in the workplace. So what I always how I always counseled, have always counseled folks is if you feel that you have been something has happened to you that is either exclusive, it's not equitable and fair, and the outcome has has caused a challenge for you personally, um and professionally. The first thing is if it's a manager or if it's co-worker, whoever it is, the first thing is to have the conversation with the individual. And sometimes they know what they were doing and they don't care. Most times they just they didn't realize the impact of what they had done in their actions. And so the first thing is to have the conversation and the dialogue. We're all adults here, let's have a conversation. And the way that you approach it is what's pretty factual first. It's this happened in the meeting, and so describing the event, and then and this is the impact that it had on me. This is how I felt. Because as try as they might, they can argue about that's not what I meant, or this or that, but they can't argue about how it made you feel. And so having that conversation to say, this is how it impacted me, and this is how I felt, and then opening it up, is that what you meant to happen? I hope that's not what it what you meant to happen, but having that conversation, that dialogue, and usually that most times that is all that's needed. So the person is aware of their what they did, aware of the impact that it had on you, and that usually helps to go helps to change behavior. Usually that's all that's needed. If you have the conversation, the person doesn't change their behavior, or they don't believe you, or they don't care, or whatever, then you have to take other measures, either if it's a peer having a conversation with the manager, or if it's a manager having a conversation with if you have human resources or the manager's manager. But elevating your voice and empowering yourself to have the conversation is really important because there are so many others who don't feel, as I said, they don't feel empowered to be able to elevate their voice. And so you are helping yourself. You're also helping the environment of the team as well. Because if they're aware and they truly do want to change their behavior, then you're stopping them from that happening to the next person.

SPEAKER_01 21:35

I love this so much. I know people will be taking notes on how to handle that for sure. I

Rocks and Fence Analogy

SPEAKER_01 21:42

want to talk about your book really quick, the truth about equity. So I would love to know this truth that I don't think people are always ready to hear. And then what are you hoping readers are going to walk away with thinking about differently?

SPEAKER_00 21:56

I use in the book the analogy about the rocks and The fences. And everyone, I think, has seen that illustration. And it's basically the first illustration of this cartoon. There are three people that are standing on, all of them are standing on one rock, and there's a fence in front of them. The person on the right can't see over the fence. The person in the middle can barely see over the fence. The person on the left can clearly see over the fence with the one rock. And then you go into the next illustration, and the person on the right has been given two additional rocks, and they can now see over the fence. The person in the middle has been given one additional rock. They can now see over the fence. And what's happening in my analogy, those rocks are acts of equity. Now, the person that was standing on one rock in both illustrations, they're looking to their right and they're saying, how come they have three rocks, they have two rocks, and I only have one? That's not fair. That's not inclusive. That's exclusive. That's unfair. And the reason why they feel that way is because they've always been able to see over the fence. They don't even realize the fence is there. And in my analogy, the offense are all of those isms: racism, sexism, ageism, homophobia, ableism, all of those things that they didn't crop up overnight. And they're going to take longer-term strategies to try to pull apart from institutions, organizations, et cetera. And so the work that needs to be done is to have the conversation with that individual while we're putting the rocks of equity in place so everybody has access and can see over the fence. And we're tearing down the fence as well. Because that individual, they don't understand that how that fence, how it how it manifests itself to their colleagues to the right. They don't understand how it, the microaggressions and the marginalization and all of those behaviors that have held those individuals back and what their experiences are. So we're having that conversation. But one of the myths about equity is that the person is getting something over the other person. And the thing is, that rock wasn't taken away from that individual at all. No, there's like we didn't take the rock away and give the other people three and two rocks. The person still had access to look over the fence. What we were trying to do with the rocks is let the other people have access over the fence. And so having access to opportunities that the person that was standing on one rock that they already had and the other people didn't have, even with everybody getting the same amount, one rock. And that's one of the myths of equity where you're taking something away from me. No, we're not taking anything away from you. We're giving people what they need so they can have access to opportunities. That's the work that needs to be done. And so that's a myth that people have.

Myths Standards and Hiring Bias

SPEAKER_00 25:00

Another myth about equity and equitable practices is you're lowering the standard. If you bring that woman into that job, you're actually lowering the standard. You're really not hiring the most qualified person. And the thing about it is hiring managers, what they need to understand, they give the recruiter the here's the skills, here's the capabilities, here's the experience, here's the years of experience that we want for the role. So they give all that information to the recruiter, and the recruiter goes and gets them people that have those qualifications. And the thing that the manager who's not thinking inclusively thinks that, oh, you know, I if you bring in people of different identities, then they're not qualified. You're lowering the standards that I gave you. And they need to understand that the recruiter's job is to get people who meet the qualifications of the role that you've given them as the hiring manager. And you need to understand that those qualifications are embodied in a variety of different identities. A variety of different identities. And so that's what they need to understand. They're widening the screen, not basically saying that you can only get this person or that person, and they can only look like this. There are so many qualified people across a variety of different dimensions of diversity and identities that you need to avail yourselves to. And so you're not lowering the standards, you're widening the gate.

SPEAKER_01 26:42

While you were talking, all I could think about is people who feel like something is being taken from them. It almost sounds like there's a fear of standing on your own merit and having to compete a little bit more and having to really be the best person for the opportunity.

SPEAKER_00 26:59

Yeah, for so long, it's been we a lot of organizations, they have the go-to gal, the go-to guy, right? That person who they get the great assignments, they get the great projects, they get the promotions. And we haven't sat back and shaken up the system a bit to say, let's take the bias out of, in this example, the talent acquisition process. Let's do structured interviews where we ask all of the candidates the same five questions. Let's do panel interviews where instead of Lemon coming in and interviewing with Celeste, leaving her office and going and interviewing John, leaving, going interviewing with Harry, Celeste, John, Harry, and Eloise come together as a panel and they ask questions of Lemon at the same time. Because then when they're having the conversation about the candidates, including Lemon, they can challenge each other's paradigms. They can challenge each other's perceptions and perspectives and have a good conversation about the candidates that is more fair and equitable because they've asked the structured questions, they've listened to the answers, they can challenge each other in the meeting when they're talking about the candidates, and they can't say, when they were in my office, they said such and such and such. That's your interpretation of what they said. But when the candidate is there and everybody's hearing the same word, they can challenge each other. And so those are some of the things that need to happen, practices that need to happen, so people understand. So you're trying to take that tear that fence down. You're trying to take those biases out of the policies, the practices, the procedures, so you can truly have the best candidates for the role. And I think that's so very important. It reminds me of an ex I read, it was years ago, and I can't remember which orchestra it was, but they were challenged with the fact that they're they were trying to diversify the orchestra. And they decided to have blind auditions. And so they caught they put the stage curtains down, and the candidates would come and they'd play their audition music, and the people wouldn't see them. And so over a period of, and I can't remember how many years, they began to diversify because they were truly picking people based on how the quality of their work and not on what they look like. And they were able to bring more women into the orchestra over a short period of time by doing that. There is a little bit of merit around they're afraid that they're not going to get the opportunity. And it's you you want. I always tell people, I believe in people hiring the best qualified candidate. I just need to make sure that you understand that the best qualified candidate can be embodied in a variety of different identities. And understanding that is very important. Those are just some examples of how people might be feeling, but hey, you gotta step up your game.

SPEAKER_01 30:28

I love that. I listen, I love that you just said that. They do sometimes you gotta step up your game and to really put yourself out there. And I and you're willing to do that when you have the support and people are meeting you where you're at, and you're willing again to do that discretionary effort and things. I see it all goes back. Look at that. That was a good loop. I liked it. I love this so much. So

Final Advice and Where to Connect

SPEAKER_01 30:52

I don't want to keep you all day because I probably would if I could. But if you were to leave the listeners with a final piece of advice, what would you leave them with?

SPEAKER_00 31:02

I want to talk to all of those folks that that they feel like, oh, this is just too hard. I've been struggling. I want a more inclusive environment in my culture, whether you're a manager or leader or an individual leader. I believe everybody, everyone is a leader. Whether you officially have people reporting to you or not, everyone is a leader. So these three things I'll say: first of all, stay relevant, not just in your functional skills and capabilities, but stay relevant around what's happening externally in the environment from a political, social, economic standpoint. So you can bring all of that knowledge into your workplace. The second thing is stay supportive. Stay supportive of each other. We're gonna have our good days, our bad days, our good hours and bad hours within those days. Reach out to people. Hey, how are you doing? Are you doing okay? Just a text or a phone call or a quick poking your head in their area and asking how they're doing. It's really important that we stay supportive of each other. And then the third thing is stay in the fight. It will seem some days that it's just too hard and you just want to give up, but stay in the fight. Stay in the fight because there are people who are coming after you that it needs you to help pave the way for our children, our grandchildren, the nieces and nephews, like you talked about earlier. We want to pave the way for them so they don't have to go through some of the things that we went through.

SPEAKER_01 32:35

Oh my gosh, I love this so much. Okay, thank you, Celeste, for being here. Where can everybody go get your book? And what is the best way to connect with you?

SPEAKER_00 32:44

The best way to connect with me is you can connect with me through LinkedIn, Celeste Warren, she her. And my website is www.crwdiversity.com, and you can engage with me there. And then also I'm on Instagram, Substack, Facebook, all of that as well. Please engage with me and let's continue the conversation.

SPEAKER_01 33:08

Oh my gosh, Celeste, thank you. I will link to everywhere you can get a copy of the book. I will link to all of the places to connect with Celeste because I just think this conversation is very relevant right now and super important. So I want to thank you for being here. Maybe we'll have to have you on again later. Maybe we'll do a six month checkup every six months on what is happening in the world because this conversation is ever evolving and changing based on dynamics. So I just want to thank you for coming on and sharing your heart and your wisdom with my listeners today. I deeply appreciate you.

SPEAKER_00 33:42

Thank you for the invitation, Lemon. Appreciate it.